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Flight
Dec 12, 2014 18:42:33 GMT
Post by barnhill on Dec 12, 2014 18:42:33 GMT
Ok, so does a Battloid have flight? It appears to me that "Battloid Restriction, Flight, Leadership 3 and Variable Modes" are all special abilities that the VF-1S has in all modes. Then it gains the other abilities "Hands, Hover, Afterburner, Fast Mover" when it changes to the relevant mode. It makes sense to me because we see them flying in Battloid all the time in the show, just want to be sure I am thinking correctly. ![]()  |
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brian
New Member
Posts: 91 
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Flight
Dec 12, 2014 19:32:34 GMT
Post by brian on Dec 12, 2014 19:32:34 GMT
Yes, I believe it does.
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Flight
Dec 12, 2014 20:57:21 GMT
Post by barnhill on Dec 12, 2014 20:57:21 GMT
OK, just wanted to be sure I wasnt making stuff up. LOL
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Flight
Dec 12, 2014 23:29:03 GMT
Post by soulfly626 on Dec 12, 2014 23:29:03 GMT
what will flight gain at spd 5?
I read that it's restricted from flying in that mode. Again, my reading comprehension sucks.
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Flight
Dec 13, 2014 3:22:38 GMT
Post by Galahad on Dec 13, 2014 3:22:38 GMT
Nope, flight is universal to all modes for valks. And flight benefits low speed models as much or more than high speed models. The difference between moving around an obstruction vs over it is massive when you're slow. They have thrusters on their backs and in their legs, thrusters capable of propelling a multifon fighter at supersonic speeds, it can definately make the thing putter over a building in batt mode.
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Flight
Dec 19, 2014 18:56:04 GMT
Post by soulfly626 on Dec 19, 2014 18:56:04 GMT
Galahad, Read the "Hover Rule" vs moving over rough terrain and taller obstacles. So while in guardian mode....it ignores the the hover rule and easily go over a tall building because of flight?
The way I see this...
Figther= aircraft/after burner (ignores all rough terrain and building heights)
guardian= Hoover (ignores rough terrain and buildings shorter than the Valk.)
Battleloid= ignores all rough terrain but can climb tall buildings because of hands? I think this mode needs a bit more clarification. Card says it's restricted from flight. If flight was on all modes how is it that it's listed under the restrictions?
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Flight
Dec 19, 2014 19:30:52 GMT
Post by barnhill on Dec 19, 2014 19:30:52 GMT
I dont have my cards in front of me, but I dont remember seeing anything about flight restrictions. Battloid Restriction only says it cant fire its wing mounted missles in battloid mode.
Leadership isnt mentioned on any of the specific modes either, so when a VF-1J changes modes it looses leadership? Its in the same space that the general special abilities are listed.
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Flight
Dec 19, 2014 19:38:03 GMT
Post by barnhill on Dec 19, 2014 19:38:03 GMT
 Actually the last paragraph in Aircraft pretty much sums it up...  |
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Post by Galahad on Dec 19, 2014 23:30:13 GMT
soulfly, nothing says it is restricted from using flight in battloid mode. I'm not even sure where you got that idea. "Battloid restriction" is a special rule that says they cannot use their wing missiles while in battloid mode. At no point does the definition of battloid restriction go on to state that flight cannot be used. Look it up, p24
flight lets you ignore terrain restrictions for movement and move over other mecha, something the Valk can do in all modes.
Aircraft *includes* flight.
Hover is *similar* to flight, except that it also adds a -1 to hit the hovering model, and does not allow you to ignore elevation, unless you also have an ability (like flight) that allows you to do so. Who on earth would a Guardian mode valk with WINGS AND THRUSTERS be unable to move over a building? It has hover AND flight.
Hands let you climb up and down vertical surfaces for a command point...hands for a valk are of basically no use since flight renders them obsolete, but other mecha have hands wihtout the flight ability, and obsolete or not, the model still has hands so there's no harm in listing the rule. Eventually circumstances will arise where having hands is useful, like picking up an object
I think your confusion arises from the way the special abilities are listed. "Battloid restriction, flight, variable modes" that just means that it has these three abilities. As I said, Battloid Restriction is explicitly defined as the inability to use wing missiles in that mode. It does not, in any way mean that Flight is restricted in battloid mode...if it did it would also mean that Leadership and Variable modes are restricted, which is clearly not the case.
The special ruiles listed before the alt modes are abilities it has *regardless of mode* the rules it lists under each mode are the ones it has *in addition to those*
Anyone who's seen the anime knows that valks can fly in all modes. All it takes is a simple look at the rules to show that the rules reflect this.
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Flight
Dec 20, 2014 1:08:25 GMT
Post by soulfly626 on Dec 20, 2014 1:08:25 GMT
soulfly, nothing says it is restricted from using flight in battloid mode. I'm not even sure where you got that idea. "Battloid restriction" is a special rule that says they cannot use their wing missiles while in battloid mode. At no point does the definition of battloid restriction go on to state that flight cannot be used. Look it up, p24 flight lets you ignore terrain restrictions for movement and move over other mecha, something the Valk can do in all modes. Aircraft *includes* flight. Hover is *similar* to flight, except that it also adds a -1 to hit the hovering model, and does not allow you to ignore elevation, unless you also have an ability (like flight) that allows you to do so. Who on earth would a Guardian mode valk with WINGS AND THRUSTERS be unable to move over a building? It has hover AND flight. Hands let you climb up and down vertical surfaces for a command point...hands for a valk are of basically no use since flight renders them obsolete, but other mecha have hands wihtout the flight ability, and obsolete or not, the model still has hands so there's no harm in listing the rule. Eventually circumstances will arise where having hands is useful, like picking up an object I think your confusion arises from the way the special abilities are listed. "Battloid restriction, flight, variable modes" that just means that it has these three abilities. As I said, Battloid Restriction is explicitly defined as the inability to use wing missiles in that mode. It does not, in any way mean that Flight is restricted in battloid mode...if it did it would also mean that Leadership and Variable modes are restricted, which is clearly not the case. The special ruiles listed before the alt modes are abilities it has *regardless of mode* the rules it lists under each mode are the ones it has *in addition to those* Anyone who's seen the anime knows that valks can fly in all modes. All it takes is a simple look at the rules to show that the rules reflect this. Ok, I hear ya. They could have done a better job with the cards and rules. |
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Flight
Dec 20, 2014 1:10:06 GMT
Post by soulfly626 on Dec 20, 2014 1:10:06 GMT
Question,
In battleloid mode, can it go over a building? I see that the speed is cut in more than half to make it more like the show.
never mind.
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Flight
Dec 20, 2014 1:17:13 GMT
Post by Galahad on Dec 20, 2014 1:17:13 GMT
Yes, in battloid mode it can go over a building. It can't go as fast as a jet, or a jet with legs on, but it can indeed leap tall buildings in a single bound ;-) for that matter, a regult can actually Leap over a building, or onto it as well, regardless of height.
Also, btw, I'm sorry if my earlier post came out sounding harsh or snippy. I was trying to be thorough and eleminate any possible confusion but re-reading it, it came out a bit dickish and I didn't intend it to be.
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Flight
Dec 20, 2014 1:49:23 GMT
Post by soulfly626 on Dec 20, 2014 1:49:23 GMT
Yes, in battloid mode it can go over a building. It can't go as fast as a jet, or a jet with legs on, but it can indeed leap tall buildings in a single bound ;-) for that matter, a regult can actually Leap over a building, or onto it as well, regardless of height. Also, btw, I'm sorry if my earlier post came out sounding harsh or snippy. I was trying to be thorough and eleminate any possible confusion but re-reading it, it came out a bit dickish and I didn't intend it to be. No worries my friend. Thanks for sharing the info. I'm almost done building my squadrons...just want to get some of the rules down so I can start playing soon. Regulds can go their full speed then take an additional leap from what I read. |
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Flight
Dec 20, 2014 2:10:40 GMT
Post by Galahad on Dec 20, 2014 2:10:40 GMT
Yep. So they can move 5, then Leap 5. During the Leap they can ignore terrain and height, but not during their regular move. They also cannot spend CP to boost the leap move.
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Flight
Dec 20, 2014 10:16:35 GMT
Post by barnhill on Dec 20, 2014 10:16:35 GMT
And the biggest thing I see missed is that leap is done at ANY point during there move. Not just the end like Afterburner. Move 2, leap 5, move 3 etc..
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Flight
Dec 20, 2014 21:24:06 GMT
Post by Galahad on Dec 20, 2014 21:24:06 GMT
Indeed, I failed to mention that.
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Flight
Dec 21, 2014 17:57:23 GMT
Post by n815e on Dec 21, 2014 17:57:23 GMT
This needs to be clarified by PB.
As always, I suggest using common sense. Battloids are not aerodynamic, they are not going to be able to sustain flight. I see the flight ability for them to pass over low level rough terrain, not ignore buildings altogether. Like leap, you should approach it with an eye towards realism. A five inch leap is not going to push a battlepod over a ten inch tall building and a battloid that gets a little hopping boost from its feet to cross a small river or jump over another mecha is not going to traverse a skyscraper.
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Post by Galahad on Dec 21, 2014 19:49:05 GMT
Except you're wrong, guy-without-an-actual-name-so-I-can't-say-your-name.
Battloids fly ALL THE DAMNED TIME in the anime. It's an anime after all. Their low speed represents their poor flying ability compared to their airplane and guardian forms. Meanwhile NOTHING in the rules supports what you've just said. flight and leap both ignore terrain and elevation, clearly and explicitly in their descriptions. It doesn't need clarified because it's absolutely clear.
If this were meant to be how it worked then they would have said "When leaping or flying over tall objects, remember to count vertical movement against your spd" but it doesn't. in fact, it says exactly the opposite.
This was done to keep the game fast and fun and also to reflect that it's not a reality simulator it's a game about a goddamned anime LOL
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Flight
Dec 21, 2014 22:14:35 GMT
Post by mike1975 on Dec 21, 2014 22:14:35 GMT
Battloids have flight. They ignore underlying terrain. So does FPA and MPA. It's not temporary or limited in any way. Leap not only allows some terrain to be ignored but also adds to the units movement. So a Battloid can move 5 while a Battlepod can move 7.5-10 inches. 7.5 if all of it is in rough terrain. The first 5 from leap and the other 2.5 for the normal 5 inches reduced by the 2 inches per inch moved.
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Flight
Dec 21, 2014 22:20:20 GMT
Post by Galahad on Dec 21, 2014 22:20:20 GMT
Bingo
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Flight
Dec 21, 2014 22:38:13 GMT
Post by barnhill on Dec 21, 2014 22:38:13 GMT
What they said. LOL
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Flight
Dec 22, 2014 6:37:52 GMT
Post by Galahad on Dec 22, 2014 6:37:52 GMT
Sometimes you have to sacrifice a little realism for the sake of making the game easier to play, and sometimes you sacrifice it for style, particularly in an anime game ;-)
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Flight
Dec 23, 2014 6:34:07 GMT
Post by n815e on Dec 23, 2014 6:34:07 GMT
Battloids fly in space and they quickly change battloid mode high in the atmosphere but revert to fighter or guardian. Show me an episode where a battloid actually flies for any length of time.
Explain to me the math behind a 5" moving vehicle that can magically traverse a 12" high building for a total of 24" of movement. If battloids can ignore large terrain and structures as you would have us believe, then why go to the trouble of including the hands attribute for them at all?
Why bother having movement rates if the intention of the designers is to ignore distance travelled?
I always play to the setting, rather than game the rules.
Robotech is a "real-robot" anime, not DBZ. The animators gave the show some sense of realism.
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Flight
Dec 23, 2014 13:33:16 GMT
Post by mike1975 on Dec 23, 2014 13:33:16 GMT
Battloids fly in space and they quickly change battloid mode high in the atmosphere but revert to fighter or guardian. Show me an episode where a battloid actually flies for any length of time. Explain to me the math behind a 5" moving vehicle that can magically traverse a 12" high building for a total of 24" of movement. If battloids can ignore large terrain and structures as you would have us believe, then why go to the trouble of including the hands attribute for them at all? Why bother having movement rates if the intention of the designers is to ignore distance travelled? I always play to the setting, rather than game the rules. Robotech is a "real-robot" anime, not DBZ. The animators gave the show some sense of realism. Veritechs are not the only units with Hands...... Plus you want math for a Giant Transforming Robot Anime? or a Miniatures game?  |
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Min
New Member
Posts: 43
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Flight
Dec 23, 2014 14:21:49 GMT
Post by Min on Dec 23, 2014 14:21:49 GMT
Show me an episode where a battloid actually flies for any length of time. Fare Well, Big Brother. 14:26 to 14:58. Max and Miriya's iconic dog fight. Max is clearly seen flying in battloid in atmosphere. |
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brian
New Member
Posts: 91
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Post by brian on Dec 23, 2014 19:24:38 GMT
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Post by Galahad on Dec 24, 2014 6:08:47 GMT
Brian and min had the examples I was thinking of. Meanwhile I ask you to find me anywhere in the rules that says a model with flight or leap has a limit on how high they can go over terain. A battroid has flight clear as day printed on its card and the rules for both flight and leap bothh say explictly that you ignore verticle distance and just move over terrain. Remember it's supposed to be an easy to play game.
Batts have the Hands rule for the same reason guardians do BECAUSE THEY HAVE HANDS they just don't need to climb anything. Meanwhile spqrtans and zentradi infantry do.
Valks have flight variable modes and battroid restriction as base rules that always apply. Guardians gain hands and ho er jets gain aircraft and fast mover batts gain hands. Just open the book and read the words. Then go look up the movement rules and find me one place where it says you ever have to count vertical movement for leaping or flying.
Just read the rules, man! It's not "gaming the rules" it's playing the game by the damned rules. I'm not making anything up or twisting the meaning of a poorly phrased rule or exploiting a loophole. Batts have flight. Models who can fly can move over any terrain. Period. Same for leaping. A batt and a battleppd both either fly or leap 5 inches. Both can go up and over a 10 inch building if they want. Obviously the designers figued that was better than arguing geometry at the table...do you measure the angle from the ground to your applicationx and go the distance of that angled plane? Do you measure up then out and mmark both against your move? Should aircraft be forced to mark their altitude so you an pay the elevation diffrential when they go up or down? How do you track that? Trying to use "common sense" in a game usually only ends up making it unplayable. Common sense will also tell you it's impossible to make a jet thst turns into a robot and that doing so would be absolutely impractical comparedbto just using a jet as a jet
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Flight
Dec 25, 2014 3:50:05 GMT
Post by n815e on Dec 25, 2014 3:50:05 GMT
Yes, Max spends a total of less than a half of a minute hovering high in the atmosphere before changing modes to actually fly.
No examples of a battloid actually flying rather than just briefly hovering?
While looking, perhaps you could also find examples of a battlepod leaping over a skyscraper, a battloid jumping over large objects, or a battloid that takes off from the ground and flies without changing modes, as these are all things you are claiming can be done by them.
There is nothing difficult about measuring distance moved vertically, it isn't rocket science. I find it hard to believe that any experienced gamer claims that using common sense to approach problems in rules has proven difficult. Not every situation can be addressed by rules and players must come up with solutions.
Yes, battloids have hands physically, but that does not explain why they were given the hands rules if their other abilities make hands useless. From a game design point, how often do game designers load models with capabilities that are useless?
The game designers have no previous experience designing three dimensional miniatures games, it doesn't mean that we should accept ridiculous activity on the part of our models or even that they considered at all the variety possible on players' tables. As they are, the flight rules seem poorly worded or poorly considered and should be reviewed.
Mike, aren't you one of the people who think that super valks should not be used in an atmosphere because they are never shown being used in an atmosphere and they are not aerodynamic?
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brian
New Member
Posts: 91
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Flight
Dec 25, 2014 4:42:05 GMT
Post by brian on Dec 25, 2014 4:42:05 GMT
Yes, Max spends a total of less than a half of a minute hovering high in the atmosphere before changing modes to actually fly. No examples of a battloid actually flying rather than just briefly hovering? While looking, perhaps you could also find examples of a battlepod leaping over a skyscraper, a battloid jumping over large objects, or a battloid that takes off from the ground and flies without changing modes, as these are all things you are claiming can be done by them. There is nothing difficult about measuring distance moved vertically, it isn't rocket science. I find it hard to believe that any experienced gamer claims that using common sense to approach problems in rules has proven difficult. Not every situation can be addressed by rules and players must come up with solutions. Yes, battloids have hands physically, but that does not explain why they were given the hands rules if their other abilities make hands useless. From a game design point, how often do game designers load models with capabilities that are useless? The game designers have no previous experience designing three dimensional miniatures games, it doesn't mean that we should accept ridiculous activity on the part of our models or even that they considered at all the variety possible on players' tables. As they are, the flight rules seem poorly worded or poorly considered and should be reviewed. Mike, aren't you one of the people who think that super valks should not be used in an atmosphere because they are never shown being used in an atmosphere and they are not aerodynamic? Go to 4:50 in the video I posted. Max takes off in Battloid form inside the SDF-1 and flies past 4 levels of buildings before transforming into a jet. |
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Post by Galahad on Dec 25, 2014 5:08:22 GMT
Dude, (I'm going to call you dude because you decided not to have a name) you;re seriously reaching.
You asked for examples, you were given examples. Re-watch the damned show, you obviously don't remember it.
They were given the hands rule because if they weren't given the Hands rules, people would be saying "Why didn't they give them Hands, they have HANDS!" A rule doesn't have to be meaningful for it to apply to a model.
Why do Zentradi power armors have hands? Are you telling me a Queadluun can't fly?
Now, since we've been obliging enough to point out rules and video evidence to support what we say, why don;t you go and read the rulebook and tell me where the rules are for measuring vertical distance for units using Flight or Leap?
How to Aircraft keep track of altitude while they're moving? Can I use my movement to just move straight up and out of weapons range?
Again, do you measure up then over, or diagonally across your flight path? You're going to get different numbers. The rulebook should cover that...
I am a veteran wargamer, I've SEEN rules that tried to incorporate 3d movements with aircraft, and they're usually a mess. Go look up some of the old Level 3 Battletech rules from back in the 90s about how LAMs worked or how elevation was tracked on flying units... it wasn't pretty.
The designers decided to go rules-light for a reason. There's all of 14 pages of actual rules in the book, and nowhere in them do they go into 3d maneuvering. What they DO say is this "A Mecha with the Flight ability ignores any movement restrictions and penalties from terrain and may freely move over other mecha, scenery pieces, buildings and other structures" and then goes on to say "It also COMPLETELY IGNORES ALL ELEVATIONS WILE MOVING" from the Flight section on p24
Also on p24, the third paragraph of the Aircraft rule specifically mentions FLYING BATTLOIDS, saying that they move like helicopters rather than airplanes
You can state an opinion, you can say "I don't think battloids should be allowed to fly over high buildings" but when you start claiming that's how the rules work, or that it doesn't match the fluff despite piles of evidence to the contrary you're just making shit up
Clearly you're passionate about your OPINIONS on how the rules SHOULD work, but none of that is backed up by anything other than your bluster.
Now, if you want to just make up some house rules, you're welcome to do so, but those are your personal unofficial homebrew rules. There's nothing wrong with that, I've made houserules.
We're talking about the actual rules, the ones in the book though.
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