Flight

Also, I am feeling a bit of a troll/rules lawyer vibe here...spidey sense and all

Merknight, soul's already come around on the point, it's the other guy who's having issues grasping the rules.

"Go to 4:50 in the video I posted. Max takes off in Battloid form inside the SDF-1 and flies past 4 levels of buildings before transforming into a jet."

Straight up, about 15 stories (150 feet). The Apollo rocket went straight up as well. I wouldn't equate that with being able to do complex flight maneuvering.

"You asked for examples, you were given examples. "

Nobody has shown me an example of battloid flying, just hovering or rocketing up. Nobody has shown me a battlepod jumping over a skyscraper. Nobody has shown me anything other than what I had previously stated.

" A rule doesn't have to be meaningful for it to apply to a model. "

From a game design standpoint, that is nonsense. Why assign any useless rule to anything?

Pointing out bad rules (Battletech flying) is only pointing out bad rules. You cannot extrapolate that all rules sets cannot include flying in a good way based on Battletech. Starship Troopers/Evolution did a simple and good set of flying rules. 40K has simple flying rules.

"Again, do you measure up then over, or diagonally across your flight path?"

If a model moves from point A to point B, measuring the distance moved is pretty simple and intuitive.

" but when you start claiming that's how the rules work, or that it doesn't match the fluff despite piles of evidence to the contrary you're just making shit up"

Feel free to show me where I claimed that is how the rules work.
Piles of evidence? One clip is not "Piles" of evidence and it doesn't show a battloid flying. It shows exactly as I've written, in order to actually fly they change modes.
"Making shit up" and "bluster" seems to be your schtick, since you cannot actually address what I've written and have decided to make untrue claims about my posts.

However, even if battloids could "fly", a model with a 5" move should not be able to move many multiples of that distance just because the distance is in the vertical direction.
I guarantee that when you move models up a hill, you measure the distance along the ground rather than merely the horizontal distance.  Yet you want to argue against that very behavior.

"We're talking about the actual rules, the ones in the book though."

So am I, which is why I stated that I think they need to be clarified, because RAW don't coincide with the demonstrated abilities in the show or any reality, nor do they take into account the three dimensional nature of miniature wargaming. The rules authors have no experience designing miniatures wargaming rules and seem to approach it as though it was a two dimensional environment. Even the most simplistic of miniatures wargames rules take into account vertical distance.
You have been jumping through hoops trying to justify some poorly written or ill-considered rules. 

Dude, you're free to play how you want, but the rules are crystal clear.

Battloids look like they can fly to me. Why don't you go watch the show, and find an instance where a Battloid doesn't fly when it would be extremely beneficial for it to do so.

Guy-woth-no-name, I'm not even going to keep engaging you on this, you've made your mind up and ignored everything everyone who's read the rules has said. Hell, the Battloid minis even come with FLIGHT STANDS. batts fly, models with fly ignore terrain elevation, period, done, look it up in the book. Feel free to go to the homebrew forum and write up some new rules for flight and leap and battloids, whatever you want bro, but as far as the actual rules go I'd say we've pretty much established how they work within the rules as written.

The rules forum is for discussing how the rules actually work, the homebrew forum is for discussing how you feel they should work instead.

Agreed the LOS rules are wonky. Just think of the battroid as rocketing up the building. IIRC in the first or second episode there's a scene in which a pod does leap onto the roof of a multi story building. In the video game battlecry the battroid can be flown onto rooftops. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers were inspired by it. I can see why you would see it as a contradiction. Just remember this isn't a miniatures game. It's an add on to the RPG. The rules are loosely based on Kevin's terrible RPG rules set. Which in of itself can cause contradictions, hence why Kevy says houserule it. It may be that Kevin wants you to houserule your games of RRT. It's not a solution or right but this is what it is. Hopefully before the turn of the century PB puts out an FAQ to clear up some of the vague rules in the book.

The ENTIRE Max vs Miriya fight in the series. They go back and forth several times and it shows the Battleoid CLEARLY flying on several occassions.

YouTube is your friend


Macross Plus, at the 2:30 mark clearly shows a whole sequence where they are in atmosphere and flying in Battleoid

Not only in the beginning of the Max vs. Miriya fight, but very clearly at the 3:03 mark that Battloid is fully flying and at high speed.

Many systems do not deal with Vertical just because not all have flying units. You might look and see how Alpha Strike handles aircraft and see if it can be adapted.

You didn't see Max firing missiles in Battloid mode. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.

"It is explicitly stated that the combat rules for RRT are meant to be fast and to give the feel of the show. You are obviously wanting rules that emulate more detailed and realistic movement and combat. "

I think that the rules are actually pretty good with the exception of these movement rules and the various contradictory or omitted stuff. Measuring vertical distances isn't complicated; it wouldn't slow the game down, either.

"You argue that they should not be able to fly over an incredibly tall building."

The crux of my arguement is that a model should not be able to move further than its movement rate. If a model can move 5 inches and you want it to go over a ten inch building, then put it 5 inches up the side of the building or use the command points to give it 20 inches of movement.

" Many systems do not deal with Vertical just because not all have flying units. You might look and see how Alpha Strike handles aircraft and see if it can be adapted."

Every system I have played deals with vertical distance because miniature wargaming is a three dimensional environment where models will find themselves higher than others, even if there are no flying units.

I wish the playtest group included some actual miniature wargamers, or that they bothered to listen to the ones that were. Or perhaps having someone on the design team that knew miniature wargames.

Thorfinn: hands is an attribute that has a specific function in the game. None of the things you mention are a part of that game function. Models are not also listed with attributes such as feet or targeters or engines. It is needless to give a model an attribute that its other attributes make useless.

And hands are necessary for the battloid to perform the club and grab attacks.

It's the other way around, those models have the club and grab attacks because they have hands.

I suppose that you can argue the hands ability is superfluous, and that you can just give them those attacks and be done with it. For a veritech, that would be fine. They come with a rifle, so there's your club. But then you have the Spartan. The gun and club are secondary options for it, and it can only get up buildings and cliffs by climbing. Giving them 'hands' is a more concise way, particularly on the cards to say it can climb, etc.

For consistency across the range of mecha, it's better to give them 'hands' if the model has hands, with all the abilities dictated by the rule.

Regardless of Flight units have to have hands listed for scenario purposes as well as continuity.  Imagine if people wanted to remove hands from every unit because it had flight and then other units also had hands.  People would cry even harder.