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Post by tybrus on Dec 12, 2014 4:31:40 GMT
Ok I have been looking over the rules, and the way the game is set up and I think I have a playable work up for squadron organization.
Squadrons are made up of
Squadron Commander VF-1S
Squadron XO VF-1S
4 flight leaders VF-1J
12 Flight Elements VF-1A
Total 18 VF's per squadron
With each 1s leading two flights of 4 vt's
This puts 4 core cards with the 2 1s'' used as per the limit in a fieldable unit. Mechanics wise you can mix and match those VT's how you like. 2 flights of 9 what ever. I like the 2 core cards add 2 1a or 1r and a 1s and then play them in 3 groups of three on the table.
I would love to hear other thoughts and I know this does not follow navy or even Robotech traditions but I think it's the best way to live out the show with my little men.
Thoughts???
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Post by kyron23 on Dec 12, 2014 13:51:42 GMT
Sounds correct- are you really building 18x3=54 veritech minis?? I'm struggling to bang out just the base set valkyries and this is taking forever. Good Hunting!
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Post by kyrolon on Dec 12, 2014 15:35:37 GMT
I plan to do mine at half that size. It fits the WW2 Japanese model that was most likely used in the original Macross structure. In that case you take 2 Core Veritech cards, attach a VF-1S to one of them, and then operate them as 3 flights of 3 with each VF-1J and the VF-1S having 2 VF-1A wingmen. That gives us what we see in the show. The only problem is the way the activation system works means you'd have the members of the VF-1S flight activating separately on 2 different cards. If you wanted to keep it all on one core card, then you take the core plus 2 VF-1A upgrades. That leaves one flight led by a VF-1A though. If only there was a way to upgrade 1 VF-1A to a 1J it would work perfectly.
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Post by vagabondelf on Dec 15, 2014 23:18:25 GMT
It seems a decent structure, but do keep in mind serviceability rates. No military ever has managed to have all its birds available at the same time, baring the occasional moment right after a squadron converts to a new type of aircraft. Something is always wrong with one ship or another. My memory is that typically a modern fighter squadron has between 75 and 90% of its aircraft actually operational at any given moment; looking around briefly the only hard number I could find is that US Navy Sea Kings had an 87% serviceability rate. And that's peacetime; in a shooting war (especially during the SDF-1's long voyage home when they had only whatever parts and supplies were on board or they could make) rates would probably drop sharply. So of those 18 Valkyries, 2 - 5 of them (at least) should be deadlined for repairs and service. 1Ss and 1Js are probably more likely to get broken - leaders are priority targets, sortie more often, and are more likely to put themselves in a dangerous spot - but would also have priority for repairs, so I'd expect that your deadlined fighters would be one J or S and the rest As at any given moment. Of course, another way to do it - if you want that full force of 18 birds available to put on the table - is to decree the squadron is even bigger. In 1942, an Imperial Japanese Army Air Service squadron had an on-paper strength of 27 birds (and since the UN Spacy's fighter pilots use Army ranks (Fokker is part of the UN Navy) and 3-ship sections, using the IJAAS as a basis seems justifiable). So if the squadron is actually 27 birds and only 18 are on the table, that's a 67% serviceability rate, which seems not unreasonable for a squadron of very complicated vehicles that are seeing heavy use and being shot at. And then you can number your Valkyries from 1-27, skipping random numbers, to represent the missing deadlined ships.  ..Or maybe I think about this stuff too much. That's possible too. |
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Post by mike1975 on Dec 15, 2014 23:28:24 GMT
I plan to do mine at half that size. It fits the WW2 Japanese model that was most likely used in the original Macross structure. In that case you take 2 Core Veritech cards, attach a VF-1S to one of them, and then operate them as 3 flights of 3 with each VF-1J and the VF-1S having 2 VF-1A wingmen. That gives us what we see in the show. The only problem is the way the activation system works means you'd have the members of the VF-1S flight activating separately on 2 different cards. If you wanted to keep it all on one core card, then you take the core plus 2 VF-1A upgrades. That leaves one flight led by a VF-1A though. If only there was a way to upgrade 1 VF-1A to a 1J it would work perfectly. You don't activate by card but by squadron. So if you use a 2 Vermillion squadrons of 1 VF-1J and 2 VF-1A's and then added a VF-1S and VF Squad to one of the two squadrons you could have all 9 the way you wanted it. I made a custom Vermillion Squadron card for use.  |
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Post by bastinado on Dec 16, 2014 2:53:59 GMT
No military ever has managed to have all its birds available at the same time, baring the occasional moment right after a squadron converts to a new type of aircraft. Something is always wrong with one ship or another. That's a great point, hadn't really thought of that though it makes perfect sense. It also makes me feel better about keeping the size of the on board squads down, even though the show gave the impression that there might be 24+ fighters per a squadron. One thing that I was trying to work out was how to represent the show structure. It usually had the fighters divided up into a leader and two wing men groups, though having four in a core squad kind of throws that off. Was considering adding the 2 fighter upgrade when having Vermillion squad on the field so that Rick, Ben and Max would fly together and the other three would fly as a group. |
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Post by robotech on Dec 16, 2014 12:56:58 GMT
Oh I agree 100% that is why the squadron is made up of 4 flights. Normal rotation of the flights and duty assignments is common.
As for painting I plan to paint in 1/2 squadrons so 2 cards of 4 (2 1j's, 6 1's, 1 1,s)
I aim to have 3 1/2 squadrons done by the end with a few custom vt's for friends and my kids.
I only offer up a suggested order of battle for a common usage between those of us painting. I also know there will be a number people out there (yeah I might in the end I'm a nerd),want to paint up entire squadrons such as Skull etc.
I think the numbers I put forth work best into the published numbers of VT's I could find while working with the cards and to be honest more realalistic numbers of 4 Vt's in a flight not the Robotech no wingman 3 VT "squads"
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Post by maxvale76 on Dec 16, 2014 15:36:08 GMT
Great points about the actual availability of fighters vs. number of fighters carried; another common practice in both peacetime and wartime is to designate a fighter or two from each squadron as 'Hangar Queens'; which are pretty much used for parts for the actual operating fighters. Two quick notes....while Robotech is wildly all over the map when it comes to ranks (Rick is a Corporal; a SGT; a LT; a CDR; a Captain and an Admiral); I would have to say that I think the vast bulk of mecha pilot charcters (except for those in the Southern Cross) we see would probably have a NAVAL rank structure; seeing as how Rick is a CDR at one point; Roy and Scott Bernard are LCDRs; etc.; and other than Dana and Company; the only mecha pilot that has an exclusively army rank that I can think of is Colonel Wolff. No Majors; No Captains (other than Rick towards the end of Macross...AFTER he was called CDR Hunter; which leads me to think he has a Naval rank structure....for the officer grades anyway); No other Colonels (NOT counting Southern Cross; which is pretty much almost entirely Army ranks....even on the Space Ships); etc. (Please note I am NOT talking about background/minor characters like Colonel Maistroff; just mecha pilots). But then again....the show is all over the map with crazy ranks....Lisa Hayes was called a LT multiple times after being referred to as "Commander Hayes"; Dana was called a "SGT" after being called a LT (though with her lack of discipline; this could be easily explained); etc., etc. Sorry....didn't mean to de-rail the thread! As for Squadron organization; for my RPG campaign; I have the Veritechs on the SDF-1 broken into 30 plane squadrons; divided into 15 plane Flights; further divided into 3 plane Teams. Each Team consists of a Leader and two wingmen; i.e. Vermillion team would have Rick as the Leader and Max and Ben as wingmen. Not sure how this would work for the board/miniature game though. Just my two cents! -Max |
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Post by kyrolon on Dec 16, 2014 17:12:04 GMT
I plan to do mine at half that size. It fits the WW2 Japanese model that was most likely used in the original Macross structure. In that case you take 2 Core Veritech cards, attach a VF-1S to one of them, and then operate them as 3 flights of 3 with each VF-1J and the VF-1S having 2 VF-1A wingmen. That gives us what we see in the show. The only problem is the way the activation system works means you'd have the members of the VF-1S flight activating separately on 2 different cards. If you wanted to keep it all on one core card, then you take the core plus 2 VF-1A upgrades. That leaves one flight led by a VF-1A though. If only there was a way to upgrade 1 VF-1A to a 1J it would work perfectly. You don't activate by card but by squadron. So if you use a 2 Vermillion squadrons of 1 VF-1J and 2 VF-1A's and then added a VF-1S and VF Squad to one of the two squadrons you could have all 9 the way you wanted it. I made a custom Vermillion Squadron card for use. I get the squadron activation. I didn't explain it very well. If you tie all the Veritechs to a single core card (making them one squadron and having only 1 VF-1J) then they all activate at once, but you don't have the right number of flight leaders.
If you use two core squads then to get three plane flights you need to have one flight that comes from two different squadrons since the squadron is determined by the core card (i.e. you can't declare two core cards to be part of the same squadron).
I like your vermillion card. If *I* were doing the game (what minis gamer hasn't said that?) then that's what a veritech squadron would have looked like. I'll have to see if our group want to adopt it. Once we start playing regular like I plan on printing out your cards. I picked up a cheap laminator from Amazon the other day, so I am ready to make my own.
I think part of the success or failure of this game (Palladium shenanigans aside) will depend on the tone of the players. I am hoping to angle our group toward a more narrative RPG style approach of "let's make some fun stuff up" rather than a tournament mind set. I am not sure it is balanced enough for that.
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grabula
New Member
In the bowels of the SDF 1
Posts: 63 
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Post by grabula on Dec 17, 2014 10:10:39 GMT
On the side of realism, most US squadrons in the airforce have more than the craft they fly on paper. Translating this to Robotech if you had a squadron of 18 veritechs ready to fly, that means you probably have closer to 22-24 planes available to the squadron. I'm in the ANG and our wing has a specific number of planes ready to fly at all times while others are in maintenance. They have a number they consider combat ready for missions and they rotate them out for maintenance, typically as those crews stand down but it's not uncommon for flight crews to operate alternate planes when necessary.
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Post by vagabondelf on Dec 17, 2014 14:59:31 GMT
Two quick notes....while Robotech is wildly all over the map when it comes to ranks (Rick is a Corporal; a SGT; a LT; a CDR; a Captain and an Admiral); I would have to say that I think the vast bulk of mecha pilot charcters (except for those in the Southern Cross) we see would probably have a NAVAL rank structure; seeing as how Rick is a CDR at one point; Roy and Scott Bernard are LCDRs; etc.; and other than Dana and Company; the only mecha pilot that has an exclusively army rank that I can think of is Colonel Wolff. No Majors; No Captains (other than Rick towards the end of Macross...AFTER he was called CDR Hunter; which leads me to think he has a Naval rank structure....for the officer grades anyway); No other Colonels (NOT counting Southern Cross; which is pretty much almost entirely Army ranks....even on the Space Ships); etc. (Please note I am NOT talking about background/minor characters like Colonel Maistroff; just mecha pilots). But then again....the show is all over the map with crazy ranks....Lisa Hayes was called a LT multiple times after being referred to as "Commander Hayes"; Dana was called a "SGT" after being called a LT (though with her lack of discipline; this could be easily explained); etc., etc. Most of the rank issues are really translation issues. Lisa Hayes is a Lieutenant Commander; the writers seem to have been mostly unaware that one truncates "Lieutenant Commander" to "Commander," not "Lieutenant." This is partly driven by the fact that in the original show, she's only a Lieutenant for most of the show; Robotech promoted her to LCR and made her the 2IC of the SDF-1. The UN Spacy seems to have two rank structures, with the Valkyrie pilots using Air Force ranks and the actual crew of the SDF-1 using Naval ratings. In Macross, Hikaru (whic is Rick's name in the original show) consistently has Air Force ranks : Corporal - Sergeant - 3rd Lieutenant (not a US rank, but it is a Japanese one) - 1st Lieutenant (he either skipped a rank or spend such a short time as a 2LT that nothing happens in it) - Captain. He's also referred to in a way that is usually translated as "Commander" but would probably be better as "Leader." That's my guess for why Rick is suddenly using a Naval rank - a mistranslation there. Roy Fokker is the exception, but that is because he's not part of the UN Spacy. He's part of the UN Navy, assigned to UENS Prometheus, not the SDF-1. So of course he has a Naval rank. This isn't explained very well in either version of the show, admittedly. Now, Robotech is not Macross - but it makes life much simpler if we assume that Lisa's fluctuating rank is bad writers, that "Commander Hunter" is a translation error, and that the Spacy uses Naval ranks for ship crews and Air Force ranks for Air Arm crews. We could also assume that "Corporal" and "Sergeant" are wrong, but that's multiple changes instead of only one. ...yes, I'm prone to pedantry. Sorry! On the side of realism, most US squadrons in the airforce have more than the craft they fly on paper. Translating this to Robotech if you had a squadron of 18 veritechs ready to fly, that means you probably have closer to 22-24 planes available to the squadron. I'm in the ANG and our wing has a specific number of planes ready to fly at all times while others are in maintenance. They have a number they consider combat ready for missions and they rotate them out for maintenance, typically as those crews stand down but it's not uncommon for flight crews to operate alternate planes when necessary. Which is what I was saying but the other way around, and a reflection of odd US practice if they're describing the desired number of flight-ready aircraft as the "paper" strength - the Commonwealth at least uses "paper strength" to mean total number, including spares. To my knowledge, with the caveat that my knowledge comes from friends in the military rather than actual military experience. |
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Post by barnhill on Dec 17, 2014 17:01:49 GMT
I was watching the series the last few days and at one point, right after he graduates I believe he is given the "Skull 23" call numbers so that supports the 22-24 planes.
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Post by maxvale76 on Dec 17, 2014 17:25:20 GMT
Or 30....like in my RPG table-top game. |
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grabula
New Member
In the bowels of the SDF 1
Posts: 63
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Post by grabula on Dec 22, 2014 9:32:57 GMT
Paper strength is all over the board abs there's a ton of factors that influence it but generally in the US it refers to what's ideally operative. Obviously the mote expensive the equipment the tighter that difference gets. In the army I was in a stryker brigade. When we first deployed to Afghanistan the unit we were relieving was running less than 70% operative from what I understood to be 'maintenance deficiencies'. I had to gun a matv my first month in country because we didn't have enough to go around.
In my wing the air crews seem to be on top of things. We typically have about 80% of our craft ready to go but that could just be the nature of an active guard unit.
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